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GESPREK OP NIEUW-DENNENDAL.NL
Vanaf eind oktober 2003 zijn opgenomen de rubrieken DAGBOEK & PRIKBORD en COLUMN, via redactie te vullen door sitebezoekers. Bij het ontbreken van bijdragen springt de redactie in. Graag ondertekening met naam en toenaam, en eventueel e-mailadres. Ook een fotootje behoort tot de mogelijkheden. Een sleutelwoord of kopje is handig. Plaatsing van het dagboek gebeurt naar dag van ontvangst, voor de column is in principe de vrijdag gereserveerd. De plaatsing kan op zich laten wachten door technische problemen, afwezigheid van de muze, vakantie e.d.
De column- ruimte bij nieuw-dennendal.nl is bij uitstek gewijd aan het Vrije Woord. Ze kan worden gewijd aan ieder mogelijk onderwerp: van politiek, psychologie en spiritualiteit tot poëzie en boekbespreking. Vanzelfsprekend blijft de redactie verantwoordelijk.
Er geldt in principe een minimum van 350 en een maximum van 500/600 woorden, maar uitzonderingen zijn mogelijk. Eventueel wordt over de vorm ge-emaild.
Dagboekinzendingen svp mailen onder 'dagboek', columns onder 'column'.
|GESPREK met TONY PARSONS
Tony Parsons is een zenmeester van het kaliber Hui Neng, Lin Chi. Hij snijdt de banden met maya (illusie) radicaal door. In de kern is er geen afgescheiden 'ik', punt uit!
Parsons komt naar Amsterdam. Van 21 tot 23 januari geeft hij workshops in het Montessori Lyceum. Op vrijdagavond 21 januari is er vrije inloop in de aula. Zie het dagboek van 15/12/04. Hij is ook aanwezig op internet, zie The Open Secret. Aan de site is een audiofragment van een workshop met hem verbonden. Het fragment is van een bijeenkomst op 2 oktober 2004 in Londen en is genaamd 'burkedom'. Van het fragment is een transcriptie gemaakt, om de dialoog op internet toegankelijker te maken. Niet alles is verstaanbaar; dat wordt aangegeven met '(inaudible)'. Pauzes worden aangegeven met '....' In enkele gevallen heb ik tussen haakjes commentaar gegeven, zoals (laughter), (intervention), (makes no sense but it sounds like that). Als iemand meer hoort of een andere interpretatie van het gesprokene heeft, hou ik me aanbevolen voor correcties (hg).
(Op 21 februari ontving ik het volgende mailtje: Hoi, Ik lees net je transcriptie van een audiofragment van Tony Parsons op nieuw-dennendal.nl. Aan het eind heb jij "bird" gehoord maar ze zeggen "burk" (sufferd, domkop). Dat is wel vrij essentieel want daarom heet het fragment ook "burkedom". Het verklaart ook de hilariteit in de zaal :-). Groetjes, Johan Wisserhof.
Ik heb het fragment daarna nog enkele malen gehoord, en geconcludeerd dat Johan het bij het rechte einde heeft. Daarom is naast de vertaling 'bird' het correctere 'burk' na een schuine streep (/) toegevoegd - ook 'burkedom' ipv 'birding' enzovoort. Johan geeft voor 'burk' 'sufferd, domkop', maar de Koenen Engels-Nederlands geeft voor 'berk/birk/burk' 'oen' of 'sul' - hg)
Conversation with Tony Parsons, October 2, 2004, London.
Questioner (Q): Tony, the I (Eye) drops away, and then it comes back.
Tony Parsons (TP): Only apparently, yes.
Q: Apparently when it comes back, it comes with boredom, stress etcetera.
TP: That's how it is for you, isn't it?
Q: Well periodidally, yeah, I think it must be for every one, isn't it?
Q: Isn't it like that for everyone?
TP: No not necessarily, There isn't an everyone.
TP: (takes over) Basically what happens is that there is a recognition, and then the mind or thinking comes back to try and claim the recognition it cannot.... recognise, But it cannot get hold of it, because it is mindless, it is thoughtless, it is timeless..... It tries to come back because it owns that...it is like that... That dance goes on for a while... But ... not necessarily.... There is an establishment in the Knowing.... There is a sitting in the Knowing..... Which is constant Knowing, ... of this game without any significance
Q: There is not any illusion of an I coming back?
TP:An individual contraction can arise, but behind it is a constant Knowing about that's what is happening.
Q: Does that mean that the individual contraction is time bound, thougt bound, process bound?
TP: By plain nature it is, yes. But it is Known by that which is beyond.
Q: So..that .state is not a coming back at all....?
TP: But who wants to.... No, hold on: in the awakening period When there is that, and you seem...yes or not ...I don't hear totally what you say, but that does not feel very good, that's how it is, bla bla bla... But in the Knowing, there is no one who wants to escape anyone, anything This is a totall celebration, including boredom, tediousness, anger and all that
Q: Yeah, but you seem reasonably intelligent
TP: I'm not reasonably, I'm (inaudible) (lot of laughter)
Q: You seem like someone I'd like to have a conversation with.
TP: Well, you're having one.. (laughter). You have to play you're having one (laughter).
Q: And there are few people like that for me in the world, most people are pretty dull.
TP: Well, I'm trying to be interesting.
Q: And,..eh emmmm, .... you claim to be enlightened?
TP: Oh no! You have been here since the beginning, haven't you?
Q: I have.
TP: There is no such thing as enlightenment, and there is no such thing as a person.
Q: You have been mentioning there is a witnessing presence becoming apparent...
TP: Yes, but that happens to no one, that happens to no one
Q: Yes, okay, but there is a no one happening over there.
TP:But there is no one over here; you'r are still playing....you'r still kind of, no: there is no one over here.
Q: (hesitatingly) Right!
TP: I am híghly intelligent, I'm not mad.
Q: It still looks like there is someone to me.
TP: Yes, the bodymind organism, apparently the character is here, is this, but that has no relevance to awakening at all.
Q: The bodymind experience over there is making very different kind of claims about the state it is in......
TP: If you think I'm..., that someone here is making claims about owning something, then you are not hearing what is being said..
Q: No no no... I'm saying you'r making claims about the nature of .....
TP: Oh yes, it's totally radical.
TP: I mean, it's such a ráre message, it's so radical.... But then I'm highly intelligent.
Q: Why is this that it makes you not popular......
TP: We're both (laughter). Because there is no interest in this,.... they think.., because they think they are living their lives, they are in controll of their life and they can make their life work. Nobody ever has, but that's what they think.
Q: Were you ever a bird?/ (a burk?)
Q: So there is a process from birding (inaudible)/ (burkedom)
TP: I'm still a bird / (a burk). But I lost the idea that there is anywhere to get to and there is any need to change from being a bird/ (burk)...
Q: Did that come through suffering, pain, being tossed about, and being thrown in ignorance.
TP: No, it came about through the realisation that there is no one, therefor to be a bird/ (burk) is absolutely okay.
Q: Why did it happen to be... apparently (inaudible)?
TP: It did not! You see,... it puts always in the mind...., it brings back something like a post-attainment (partly indaudible). Or why did it happen to you. It didn't happen to me. It has never happened to anyone. When there is no one... there it is..., and it does not happen, it's all there is. It's not suddenly happening, ....that's all there is, that's all there ever was, when this room was empty, when people....
Q: (intervening) Yeah, it is becoming apparent, you are dropping you'r bird/ (burk) thing, whatever you're calling it, but there was apparently something that.....apparently was dropping away or, you thought about dropping away.
TP: But nobody does that.
Q: Yes nobody does that, nobody did..., after something happened, led to it, isn't it?
TP: No, nothing leads to anything, there is no time.
Q: On one level there is, but on another level there is time isn' it?
TP: Only,... there is a time in the sense of an individuality in the story..., then there is something apparently called time, and all the other things. Most things go on, they're the play of one.
Q: Yeah, yeah,
TP: But when there is no one... it is seen this is only a play of no significance that is going absolutley nowhere. That's its beauty, it does not need to, it is just what it is: chchchchummmmmmm!
Q: Okay, that's, in communication, in words..., that comes across like a process, isn't it?
TP For the individual, it would sound like a process.
Q:Yeah, if you put it into words.
TP: If you say any word..., any word is a lie. If you're speaking about it... you're, you're into subject-object.
Q: Yeah, sure. My body being a subject and an object, and having presence in time...., ..and causing problems as it has done... thoughts and all the rest of it.. Is there, is there?
Obviously there has been meditation and all that kind of stuff.
TP: Now hold on, oh gone! (sounds almost disappointed)
Q: And eh..., since approaching your very influential... books. Although there is nothing going on beforehand, but you know ....(inaudible) crystallize...(makes no sense, but it sounds like that) ... If there is nothing to do, one might as well give up the whole thing.....
TP: (intervention) No, no! Hold on! Not, there is nothing to do. There ís no one!
Q: Right, yeah,
TP: The idea there is nothing to do... is something like you cannot do something.
Q: Since I'm doing that....
TP: Since doing what? Since we're doing.
Q: I'm using words, you know what I mean.
TP: No I'm not! How do you do: not doing something, how do you do: not being someone?
Q: Well since I cease trying
TP: Well, that's still trying to do something.
I'm now going to cease doing something. If you cease trying to do something there is still someone there who is trying to cease doing something
TP: Listen, I tell you, you ain't going nowhere.
Q: All right, but..(inaudible)
TP: Well, thank you.